Stoke 1-2 Tottenham

[Gareth Keown]

if the Shawcross-Ramsay incident is as you say than it will prove itself so in a court of law..

obviously you wouldnt use this nuclear-option willy-nilly.... but if the case was compelling enough and the injuries sustained warranted further judicious retribution.... then so be it..

the Premiership probably sustains more bad tackles and injuries directly linked, than any other major league around.... theres a reason for it.

[ugs]

reckless, malicious = same freakin difference.

I truly believe its time for players as individuals and clubs as commercial-entities threaten to sue individual PLAYERS for very dangerous and reckless fouls which endanger the livelihood of a fellow-pro...

with all the video-evidence that can be collated from numerous angles, cases can be made and litigation sought if/when te situation warrants it..

I'm sick and tired of the consistently casual acceptance of physical violence that goes on on a football-pitch... and to those that say its 'a man's game', I dont think its that manly to go in to cripple someone when his attention is on controlling a football rather than in defending himself from physical attack..

Let's re name the game instead of football let's call it ...........um netball um no tiddlywinks !!!!
 
How many tackles are made in a game and how many end with a SERIOUS injury FFS it IS a man's game(although nowdays I do wonder with all the primadonnas about) but with calls for court action here and court action there the players will be wearing slippers soon and have to do a risk assesment before each bloody tackle !!!!
 
Like WilsonJet says grow a pair or watch netball
 
 

[Aosoth]

reckless, malicious = same freakin difference.

I truly believe its time for players as individuals and clubs as commercial-entities threaten to sue individual PLAYERS for very dangerous and reckless fouls which endanger the livelihood of a fellow-pro...

with all the video-evidence that can be collated from numerous angles, cases can be made and litigation sought if/when te situation warrants it..

I'm sick and tired of the consistently casual acceptance of physical violence that goes on on a football-pitch... and to those that say its 'a man's game', I dont think its that manly to go in to cripple someone when his attention is on controlling a football rather than in defending himself from physical attack..

Let's re name the game instead of football let's call it ...........um netball um no tiddlywinks !!!!
 
How many tackles are made in a game and how many end with a SERIOUS injury FFS it IS a man's game(although nowdays I do wonder with all the primadonnas about) but with calls for court action here and court action there the players will be wearing slippers soon and have to do a risk assesment before each bloody tackle !!!!
 
Like WilsonJet says grow a pair or watch netball
 
 

 

Damn straight.  No-one wants to see anyone badly hurt, but I remember when the tackle was considered an artform as worth of praise as the silky skills.  Before long the tackle will be outlawed altogether and when that happens it's the death of true football.  Football is a contact sport and, while that doesn't mean you go out to hurt someone, it does mean that if you're made of glass and are going to fold at the slightest contact, then you should probably stick to playing ker-plunk!  Oh and while we're about it...goalkeepers get entirely too much protection!!

[Gareth Keown]

I'm not talking about full-blooded run of the mill type challenges... I'm talking about gratuitously seeminglypre-meditated, dangerous challenges that the overwhelming video-evidence can qualify.... ie. de Jong's karate-kick assault on Alonso in the W final...

there are many other incidents where players lose control and recklessly hurl themselves into dangerous tackles that could break ankles or shin-bones..

the onus in any court-case would off course be on the litigator to prove his case beyond any REASONABLE doubt.... as in other cases of assault on the street for instance...

even with the present rules governing professional football, there's a duty of care imposed on everyone for their fellow pros.... if you willfully break that duty, you pay the price for any damage, loss of earnings for player and/or club..

[Aosoth]

if you willfully break that duty, you pay the price for any damage, loss of earnings for player and/or club..

And there is your key word, willfully.  Enjoy proving intent in such a fast paced environment.

[Gareth Keown]

guilty beyond REASONABLE doubt....... just like any other court-case for assault..

pace can be slowed down to any viewing frame-rate of the footage required...

actually..... scratch that word 'willfully'.... and substitute with the words ' with undue regard'

[Aosoth]

that's the point though, unless he writes a letter before the game saying "watch out matey, I'm gonna do you over", it'll be nigh on impossible to prove intent 'beyond reasonable doubt' until the idiot in question brags about it in his autobiography ala Roy Keane.

The game is one of physical exertion, you're never going to be sure that that face that one person construes as malice isn't actually a split second frame distortion of the face.

You could take anyone in the middle of a physical activity and make out intent...doesn't mean it was there....how do you differentiate between determination and malice? between intent to hurt and an awful accident?

heck next time you are mid-coitus, look at your partners face at the critical moment and imagine that in freeze-frame in court....you've got yourself a serial killer if presented in the right way!! 

[Gareth Keown]

forget 'intent' even... how about just  plain ole 'with undue regard'...

if I drive carelessly and knock a 5yr old and break her spine and cripple her, due to not paying enough attention on the road and driving too fast.... maybe I should get off too then, as I didnt 'intend' to harm her, even tho' it happened due to my own actions...

'intent' is not even in the ball-park really now is it ??...

facial expressions are irrelevant..... in many cases with the right video-evidence 'undue regard' for the consequences can be proven beyond REASONABLE doubt....

[WilsonJet]

That doesn"t hold any water. Professional athletes consent to step onto the field and engage in risky physical activity.

[Gareth Keown]

I dont think theres any sporting activity which excuses anyone from injuring someone thru 'undue regard' for any actions...most actions can carry an element of risk, but it doesnt need to be compounded by 'undue regard' for others (or even yourself)..

if that wasnt the case, I could take your position to its ultimate conclusion and kill someone during a sporting-event and not take any responsibility for it.... think about it...

[Aosoth]

that's not what is being said, but again, undue regard is hard to prove too...

how do you prove undue regard over competitveness that just went wrong?  The sport is competitive on so many levels, physical, financial, mental etc.....how do you prove in that split second that the player had the time to think "this might hurt the other guy"...it's not going to happen, he's thinking "that ball is mine and I can win it".  It's a tackle, it's not (most of the time) Roy Keane 2: Haaland's Revenge.  If the player drives his 4x4 onto the pitch and runs the opponent over, while taking the time to reverse and finish the job, by all means, throw the book at him.

This is not like driving down a built up area at 50 miles an hour...the roads have laws that govern them and if you shatter someone's spine, you've likely done it through negligence that is proveable.  How do you prove that kind of negligence where the very nature of the activity carries with it the risk of injury or unfortunately the risk of injuring another?

If you open the litigation route, then you open a can of worms that would, I honestly believe, kill the game of football.  Players suing players for loss of earnings and distress, clubs suing players for loss of return on transfer fees, players suing managers for putting them in the situation to be injured, fans suing clubs for the emotional distress / never seeing Xavier Whodjamaflip play after spending £35 having his name embossed on the back of their shirt (yes yes I know exageration but I'm making a point  )
It would eventually get to the point where games would stop because no fecker is prepared to risk a law suit.

Football is a contact sport, it carries risks like many other professions, but if in order to stop those risks you have to kill the whole sport as we know it in the process, do you do it?

[WilsonJet]

Don't be ridiculous, Gareth. I was pointing out how your example of the 5yr old pedestrian being injured in a motor accident is not analagous to a professional sporting injury. We're talking about football fouls and whether or not Shawcross is a "dirty" player.  I think he fouls hard but he's not a bad kid. YidJoe would rather just hate him because he plays for Stoke and they're a "dirty" team. I think that's funny and I like his style.

If we were professional football players and I willfully held you at gunpoint during a game and demanded your boots (pink Diadoras) with the signed phrase, "WilsonJet you are my hero", while exhibiting undue regard for your sniveling pleas of mercy that would be a criminal offense. Are you satisfied?

[Aosoth]

lol at the edit Wilson, I was about to reply a bit bewildered at the impression I had given you 

[WilsonJet]

Yeah, I forgot - but I caught it though! Had to go back a page and look. It didn't seem like you so I had to be sure - lol.

[Gareth Keown]

you really are very naive aren't you.... theres been plenty of footage already in games where a player is so obviously 'going for the player' as his eyes are not remotely on the ball evwen but trained totally at the player and the part of his anatomy targeted for damage....

in those cases, I think malicious undue regard can quite easily be proven beyond reasonable doubt.... thats all you'd needf in a civil-court prosecution, as opposed to a criminal-court case..

you are an ostritch if you can't follow the logic of the argument so far.