How stubborn/open are you?

[dimexi]

My point was that punishment should be the first priority. Rehabilitation comes next if possible. We live in a society where the criminal gets preferential treatment while the victim is all but forgotten. I read somewhere there are quite a few facilities that help the perpetrator (about 50 or more) and about one that helps the victim. We seem to have got our priorities wrong.

I guess in the current system, that would make sense. So I see your point. If we are going to continue seeing prisons as the solution then the punishment aspect is part of that scenario.

I just do not think that punishment makes any difference to the offender's way of thinking or behaviour. It may make the victims feel temporarily good, but even that does not actually last that long. If punishment is our aim then there are far more gruesome and painful ways that could be achieved. But again, this would have no positive impact on the offender, short term or long term. The psychology of it does not add up.

[Glenn R]

My point was that punishment should be the first priority. Rehabilitation comes next if possible. We live in a society where the criminal gets preferential treatment while the victim is all but forgotten. I read somewhere there are quite a few facilities that help the perpetrator (about 50 or more) and about one that helps the victim. We seem to have got our priorities wrong.

I guess in the current system, that would make sense. So I see your point. If we are going to continue seeing prisons as the solution then the punishment aspect is part of that scenario.

I just do not think that punishment makes any difference to the offender's way of thinking or behaviour. It may make the victims feel temporarily good, but even that does not actually last that long. If punishment is our aim then there are far more gruesome and painful ways that could be achieved. But again, this would have no positive impact on the offender, short term or long term. The psychology of it does not add up.

I don’t know. I’ve read many offenders accounts and most of them said if prison life was a lot harder than they would think twice. I used to live on a council estate where trouble makers didn’t fear prison because they’ve heard all the stories about the comforts of jail, or knew somebody in person or was in prison who told them direct.

Whether the psychology does add up or not the crime should fit the punishment. Victims should get a say. It is time we were on the side of the victim, not the criminal.

[Paul Finch]

    Bring back Capital Punishment, the system is far too soft on criminals, hence the large amount of Crimes that are committed with Firearms and other weaponry.

[dimexi]

I don’t know. I’ve read many offenders accounts and most of them said if prison life was a lot harder than they would think twice. I used to live on a council estate where trouble makers didn’t fear prison because they’ve heard all the stories about the comforts of jail, or knew somebody in person or was in prison who told them direct.

Whether the psychology does add up or not the crime should fit the punishment. Victims should get a say. It is time we were on the side of the victim, not the criminal.

    Bring back Capital Punishment, the system is far too soft on criminals, hence the large amount of Crimes that are committed with Firearms and other weaponry.

Have a look at the US and tell me how that is working out? Far tougher on criminals, harsher sentences, more difficult conditions whilst in Prison and a death row list as long as your arm. As well as the highest % per capita in prison by a country mile, more deaths due to violent crimes and '67% of former prisoners are rearrested and 52% are re-incarcerated, a recidivism rate that calls into question the effectiveness of America's corrections system'(www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933722.html#ixzz2GRZlCndV)  and these numbers are still growing. It just does not work or fit these outdated, primordial ideas.

I would suggest that this is one of those times when I return to the aim of the thread. Look through some information on these topics from people who are far more qualified than I and try to keep an open mind. It is too easy for us to fall into we need to punish them all, think of the victims mentality. It is the victims I am speaking about but actually there are better ways to help those victims in the long term as well as reducing the number of new victims in the future.

[Glenn R]

I don’t know. I’ve read many offenders accounts and most of them said if prison life was a lot harder than they would think twice. I used to live on a council estate where trouble makers didn’t fear prison because they’ve heard all the stories about the comforts of jail, or knew somebody in person or was in prison who told them direct.

Whether the psychology does add up or not the crime should fit the punishment. Victims should get a say. It is time we were on the side of the victim, not the criminal.

    Bring back Capital Punishment, the system is far too soft on criminals, hence the large amount of Crimes that are committed with Firearms and other weaponry.

Have a look at the US and tell me how that is working out? Far tougher on criminals, harsher sentences, more difficult conditions whilst in Prison and a death row list as long as your arm. As well as the highest % per capita in prison by a country mile, more deaths due to violent crimes and '67% of former prisoners are rearrested and 52% are re-incarcerated, a recidivism rate that calls into question the effectiveness of America's corrections system'(www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933722.html#ixzz2GRZlCndV)  and these numbers are still growing. It just does not work or fit these outdated, primordial ideas.

I would suggest that this is one of those times when I return to the aim of the thread. Look through some information on these topics from people who are far more qualified than I and try to keep an open mind. It is too easy for us to fall into we need to punish them all, think of the victims mentality. It is the victims I am speaking about but actually there are better ways to help those victims in the long term as well as reducing the number of new victims in the future.

I know the American system and how it works. But I still insist that jails are too soft and harsher punishment is needed.

Even the American prisons are harsher they still have certain luxuries. I can’t speak for all prisons but the ones I’ve read about and the ones that have been documented on TV show certain luxuries; TV, satellite etc.

[dimexi]

I know the American system and how it works. But I still insist that jails are too soft and harsher punishment is needed.

Even the American prisons are harsher they still have certain luxuries. I can’t speak for all prisons but the ones I’ve read about and the ones that have been documented on TV show certain luxuries; TV, satellite etc.

But harsher punishment still has no effect on a.) making the victim feeling happier about what happened to them (if there is a victim at all) b.) preventing re-offending. If you have looked at the US prison system, then please show me how they are a better system. You seem to want UK prisons to be more like those in the US but the reality of their prison system you seem to ignore.

I would still urge you to research the current thinking in regards to behaviour, criminal activities and the prison system.

Aside from that, to what level are you willing to go to 'punish' a criminal?

[Paul Finch]

       "MAKE THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME" because at the moment it doesn't and there lies the problem.


 

[dimexi]

       "MAKE THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME" because at the moment it doesn't and there lies the problem.


 

The real problem is thinking about this in those terms. Punishment does not equate with changed behaviour it does not work, will not work and frankly is stupid.

Yes when a person does wrong, we cannot just let them continue doing it. But the real problem lies in the reason why they are doing it in the first place. Until we are able to look at all angles, the punishment is completely irrelevant.

[Glenn R]

But harsher punishment still has no effect on a.) making the victim feeling happier about what happened to them (if there is a victim at all) b.) preventing re-offending. If you have looked at the US prison system, then please show me how they are a better system. You seem to want UK prisons to be more like those in the US but the reality of their prison system you seem to ignore.

What I want is harsher jail time than we have now. Agree that not all prisoners should get the same. Some need a good education and better facilities. In other words one size shouldn’t fit all. That is where we are going wrong. Some are habitual while others can be reformed.

I would still urge you to research the current thinking in regards to behaviour, criminal activities and the prison system.

I have. Hopefully what I said above will readjust what I had unfortunately rushed.

Aside from that, to what level are you willing to go to 'punish' a criminal?

Again; taking in what I said and depending on the criminal; a lot harder than what we have had.

[dimexi]

But harsher punishment still has no effect on a.) making the victim feeling happier about what happened to them (if there is a victim at all) b.) preventing re-offending. If you have looked at the US prison system, then please show me how they are a better system. You seem to want UK prisons to be more like those in the US but the reality of their prison system you seem to ignore.

What I want is harsher jail time than we have now. Agree that not all prisoners should get the same. Some need a good education and better facilities. In other words one size shouldn’t fit all. That is where we are going wrong. Some are habitual while others can be reformed.

I would still urge you to research the current thinking in regards to behaviour, criminal activities and the prison system.

I have. Hopefully what I said above will readjust what I had unfortunately rushed.

Aside from that, to what level are you willing to go to 'punish' a criminal?

Again; taking in what I said and depending on the criminal; a lot harder than what we have had.

Granted you have looked into the topic and you are obviously still entitled to think in any way you wish. Everyone will have varying degrees of requirements for what they think should happen to people who commit crimes. But it still does not answer to any scientific or psychological study into human behaviour. Aside from the obvious 1) If they are in prison they cannot commit another crime (Against the general public anyway)  2) If they are dead they can't hurt anyone, but that is a different matter altogether.

Until you can show that harsher sentences make any difference you points are of a personal standpoint, but unlikely to change anyone's already formed belief structure.

Which was the aim of the thread, we seem to have taken this a viable subject matter, with strong views from different parties. The question now is, can anyone form a solid argument for their deeply held beliefs, that stands up against scrutiny.

[Glenn R]

But shouldn’t it be the government that shows the current prison sentence is working? And also all view points on here are personal, and would never change anybody’s mind.

[dimexi]

But shouldn’t it be the government that shows the current prison sentence is working?

Yes, I guess the government should have to show the effectiveness of the current prison system. But this would involve them listening to the experts in this area, rather than having to say what they think the general public wants to hear, in order to be re-elected.

If there was evidence that it did not work, again they would need to look at the actual evidence and base any future decisions on that evidence, rather than making future decisions based on how they think they will be perceived by the general public.

Which is difficult when the general public are not experts and base their decisions on the way they were brought up and the experiences they have had. Which although valid as a personal viewpoint, does not necessarily match what is in the best interest for society as a whole.

But shouldn’t it be the government that shows the current prison sentence is working? And also all view points on here are personal, and would never change anybody’s mind.

If we are unwilling to change our minds we will never learn anything, the world stays as it is and we devolve as a species. Also what is the point of expressing our viewpoint as a poster on a forum at all? We may as well be telling it to the fridge.

I am not afraid to change my view through choice, learn from my mistakes and if there is compelling evidence that proves me wrong then my view will be changed by force if necessary. If we are not able to change when a better idea comes along, then there is no point us being here as readers either.

[dimexi]

Are we really looking to the USA for ways to improve our prison system?

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[Glenn R]

But shouldn’t it be the government that shows the current prison sentence is working?

Yes, I guess the government should have to show the effectiveness of the current prison system. But this would involve them listening to the experts in this area, rather than having to say what they think the general public wants to hear, in order to be re-elected.

If there was evidence that it did not work, again they would need to look at the actual evidence and base any future decisions on that evidence, rather than making future decisions based on how they think they will be perceived by the general public.

Which is difficult when the general public are not experts and base their decisions on the way they were brought up and the experiences they have had. Which although valid as a personal viewpoint, does not necessarily match what is in the best interest for society as a whole.

But shouldn’t it be the government that shows the current prison sentence is working? And also all view points on here are personal, and would never change anybody’s mind.

If we are unwilling to change our minds we will never learn anything, the world stays as it is and we devolve as a species. Also what is the point of expressing our viewpoint as a poster on a forum at all? We may as well be telling it to the fridge.

I am not afraid to change my view through choice, learn from my mistakes and if there is compelling evidence that proves me wrong then my view will be changed by force if necessary. If we are not able to change when a better idea comes along, then there is no point us being here as readers either.

Oh, I don't mind changing my mind. We must always be receptive to new ideas or way. So I agree with a lot of what you say.