Chelsea v Tottenham

[Glenn R]

Did anyone see the analysis after the match some very interesting comments from messers Souness and Hoddle who basically said that we are a worse side than last year and if we don't make the top 4 this season would be a failure. They even went as far to say that we were a better footballling side under Redknapp and asked the question why was he sacked !!! to which Hoddle said it was obviously not for footballing reasons !!! Hoddle went on to say that the signings of Sigardsson, Dempsey and Holtby have not helped as they are not of a good enough standard to improve our squad but he did go on to say that AVB should be given more time and was hopefull that if the Chairman backs him then hopefully we will improve !!
 

They will be wrong if we equalled with what we achieved last year.

[dimexi]

Did anyone see the analysis after the match some very interesting comments from messers Souness and Hoddle who basically said that we are a worse side than last year and if we don't make the top 4 this season would be a failure. They even went as far to say that we were a better footballling side under Redknapp and asked the question why was he sacked !!! to which Hoddle said it was obviously not for footballing reasons !!! Hoddle went on to say that the signings of Sigardsson, Dempsey and Holtby have not helped as they are not of a good enough standard to improve our squad but he did go on to say that AVB should be given more time and was hopefull that if the Chairman backs him then hopefully we will improve !!
 

They will be wrong if we equalled with what we achieved last year.

What will they be wrong about exactly? That were just stating that finishing lower than 4th would be a failure. But even if we do that it does not mean they will change their opinion on our footballing ability. What they have said about Dempsey, Sig and Holtby is not untrue either. They are good squad players but we have not matched the quality of the players that left. I am not even going to comment on the Redknapp comments as they have all been done previously.

 

[Paul Finch]

    To a degree, what they said is true, personally I do think that the quality and style of our play isn't anywhere near as exciting as last year or the year before, but that is because the quality of the players that we bought are nowhere near as good as the players that they replaced, I have said many times that I am not a big fan of AVB, but to be fair to him, I think he has done a reasonably good job with the players that he has had available, and as the saying goes "You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sows Ear", he has been let down by Mr Levy not buying the players that we so obviously need, but that has been discussed so often it is not funny.
 

[Glenn R]

Did anyone see the analysis after the match some very interesting comments from messers Souness and Hoddle who basically said that we are a worse side than last year and if we don't make the top 4 this season would be a failure. They even went as far to say that we were a better footballling side under Redknapp and asked the question why was he sacked !!! to which Hoddle said it was obviously not for footballing reasons !!! Hoddle went on to say that the signings of Sigardsson, Dempsey and Holtby have not helped as they are not of a good enough standard to improve our squad but he did go on to say that AVB should be given more time and was hopefull that if the Chairman backs him then hopefully we will improve !!
 

They will be wrong if we equalled with what we achieved last year.

What will they be wrong about exactly? That were just stating that finishing lower than 4th would be a failure. But even if we do that it does not mean they will change their opinion on our footballing ability. What they have said about Dempsey, Sig and Holtby is not untrue either. They are good squad players but we have not matched the quality of the players that left. I am not even going to comment on the Redknapp comments as they have all been done previously.

You can always find and pick people who will agree with your views (either pro or anti) and even though there are a few who have criticised the players mentioned there are others who have said they are good buys.  Holtby is a good players and will get better. Don't forget they were saying the same thing about Bale. Dempsey is our third highest scorer. Without him we wouldn't be were we are currently. Sig has also scored a few goals to get us out of trouble.

[Glenn R]

    To a degree, what they said is true, personally I do think that the quality and style of our play isn't anywhere near as exciting as last year or the year before, but that is because the quality of the players that we bought are nowhere near as good as the players that they replaced, I have said many times that I am not a big fan of AVB, but to be fair to him, I think he has done a reasonably good job with the players that he has had available, and as the saying goes "You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sows Ear", he has been let down by Mr Levy not buying the players that we so obviously need, but that has been discussed so often it is not funny.
 

If we finish 4th, like we did last season, and you say those players you mentioned aren't as good then those players (from last season) are also not as good; as we would (hopefully) have finished equal on points. We buy players to achieve a certain goal and if we finished 4th in AVB's first season then they have done that job. Now we have to build on this season to achieve better.

[spursjoolz]

With a weaker  squad than last season (IMO),  AVB would have achieved more if we finish 4th.

[Paul Finch]

  Voice,
           Surely even you can see that we haven't replaced the quality of players that we have lost, and I seem to remember you stating that the quality of the Teams in the PL is not as strong as in previous years which rather negates your argument, had Levy replaced the players we lost with similar quality, then we would have had every chance of finishing in the top 3 instead of 5th, which is where it looks like we will finish. THAT IS CLEARLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
          I am not blaming AVB, as I said, I think he has done a reasonably good job with the players that he has had at his disposal, the blame lies fairly and squarely on Mr Levy's shoulders.
 
 
   

[Glenn R]

  Voice,
           Surely even you can see that we haven't replaced the quality of players that we have lost, and I seem to remember you stating that the quality of the Teams in the PL is not as strong as in previous years which rather negates your argument, had Levy replaced the players we lost with similar quality, then we would have had every chance of finishing in the top 3 instead of 5th, which is where it looks like we will finish. THAT IS CLEARLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

You seem to miss my point. If we finish 4th (the same as last season) then saying the quality is poorer is irrelevant. In other words those quality players you mentioned couldn’t finish one better than this “poor lot”. They can’t have been that good in the first place. Quality means better, and they certainly wouldn’t be better if they finished the same as the “poor quality” you talk about. I regard quality in a football team by league placing’s. It is no good having the top players in the world if they can’t produce the good; and the good are shown in how we finish. I would rather have 11 s**t players finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th than 11 amazing brilliant players finishing 8th or below.
However, and saying all that. Dembele isn’t a bad player. Whether he is in the same league as Modric, only time will tell.
 

         I am not blaming AVB, as I said, I think he has done a reasonably good job with the players that he has had at his disposal, the blame lies fairly and squarely on Mr Levy's shoulders.
 
 

You make a good point; if, as you say, we haven’t “replaced the quality” then you must admit that AVB has done a brilliant and outstanding job with the players we’ve got (poor quality, according to you). You can’t have it both ways. In that case you’ll be wanting him to stay at Spurs for many years to come.
As for Mr Levy; let us see what he does for next season; as for this season. I’ll reserve my comments for when we have finished this season.

[dimexi]

You seem to miss my point. If we finish 4th (the same as last season) then saying the quality is poorer is irrelevant. In other words those quality players you mentioned couldn’t finish one better than this “poor lot”. They can’t have been that good in the first place. Quality means better, and they certainly wouldn’t be better if they finished the same as the “poor quality” you talk about. I regard quality in a football team by league placing’s. It is no good having the top players in the world if they can’t produce the good; and the good are shown in how we finish. I would rather have 11 s**t players finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th than 11 amazing brilliant players finishing 8th or below.
However, and saying all that. Dembele isn’t a bad player. Whether he is in the same league as Modric, only time will tell.

If we finish 4th is only a slim possibility, but not impossible.

Obviously you can only judge the success of side by its league placing in a particular year. The same reason why you can't really compare Greaves and Gazza or Best with Cantona etc. A team can only compete with the sides around them at the time.

However, I do not think it is irrelevant, comparing the quality. You can say that the quality of the football has lessened in the league as a whole and say that the football played by Spurs is not as exciting or pleasurable to watch as before as well as saying that the quality of the squad is not as high.

Last year Man City won the title in the last minutes of the last game and only won the title by goal difference. Had that not occurred they would have ended up 2nd. This year they also ended up 2nd yet the quality of their play has greatly diminished. I know this is hypothetical, but the subtle difference is required to highlight how the quality of the play does matter.

I think that had we had the same players at Spurs as last year and played the same kind of football, I believe we would have scored more points and be higher in the league than we are. I also think that this would be true, whether AVB managed that squad or Harry had stayed on for another year.

Oh and I would rather we had 11 brilliant players that were exciting to watch, played attractive football and finished 5th than to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th playing rubbish football. I just prefer Spurs to play that way and finishing 2nd is still first loser in my book, you have won nothing so the sacrifice would be worth it for me. I would however, be okay if we played crap but won the title, that would be okay, but only for 1 season! 

[Paul Finch]

Quote from Voice"You make a good point; if, as you say, we haven’t “replaced the quality” then you must admit that AVB has done a brilliant and outstanding job with the players we’ve got (poor quality, according to you). You can’t have it both ways. In that case you’ll be wanting him to stay at Spurs for many years to come."
Voice,
          Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth, AVB has not done a brilliant and outstanding job, I repeat 'he has done a reasonable job with the players that he has at his disposal'. I did not say that all the players were poor quality, again I will repeat, 'the players that were bought to replace the two players that left the club, were of poorer quality.' I have said in a previous post that the Jury is still out on AVB and nothing has happened to make me change my opinion, and yes I can have it both ways as you put it. That is my right.
 
 

[spursjoolz]

Oh and I would rather we had 11 brilliant players that were exciting to watch, played attractive football and finished 5th than to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th playing rubbish football. I just prefer Spurs to play that way and finishing 2nd is still first loser in my book, you have won nothing so the sacrifice would be worth it for me. I would however, be okay if we played crap but won the title, that would be okay, but only for 1 season! 

That is an incredible statement to make  If we had 11 brilliant players, it is unlikely that we would play badly enough to end up 8th or 9th and if we did, every Spurs supporter would be up in arms at the money wasted on them and the manager not doing enough to motivate the players.  Playing great football is one thing, being hammered whilst doing it is pointless. ie: We lost 3- 0 today, but the lads played well???

No club can perform at their best every week as we are all aware and that applies to us. Just ask your wives! 

[Glenn R]

Quote from Voice"You make a good point; if, as you say, we haven’t “replaced the quality” then you must admit that AVB has done a brilliant and outstanding job with the players we’ve got (poor quality, according to you). You can’t have it both ways. In that case you’ll be wanting him to stay at Spurs for many years to come."
Voice,
          Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth, AVB has not done a brilliant and outstanding job, I repeat 'he has done a reasonable job with the players that he has at his disposal'. I did not say that all the players were poor quality, again I will repeat, 'the players that were bought to replace the two players that left the club, were of poorer quality.' I have said in a previous post that the Jury is still out on AVB and nothing has happened to make me change my opinion, and yes I can have it both ways as you put it. That is my right.
 
 

If we finish 4th in his first season then he has done better than "reasonable". In fact he would have started off better than most of all Spurs former managers; including Bill Nicholson. In 5th in his first season isn't bad.

As I said in my previous post; I would rather have "poor quality" and 4th and having brilliant quality and below 6th.

[Glenn R]

You seem to miss my point. If we finish 4th (the same as last season) then saying the quality is poorer is irrelevant. In other words those quality players you mentioned couldn’t finish one better than this “poor lot”. They can’t have been that good in the first place. Quality means better, and they certainly wouldn’t be better if they finished the same as the “poor quality” you talk about. I regard quality in a football team by league placing’s. It is no good having the top players in the world if they can’t produce the good; and the good are shown in how we finish. I would rather have 11 s**t players finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th than 11 amazing brilliant players finishing 8th or below.
However, and saying all that. Dembele isn’t a bad player. Whether he is in the same league as Modric, only time will tell.

If we finish 4th is only a slim possibility, but not impossible.

Obviously you can only judge the success of side by its league placing in a particular year. The same reason why you can't really compare Greaves and Gazza or Best with Cantona etc. A team can only compete with the sides around them at the time.

However, I do not think it is irrelevant, comparing the quality. You can say that the quality of the football has lessened in the league as a whole and say that the football played by Spurs is not as exciting or pleasurable to watch as before as well as saying that the quality of the squad is not as high.

Last year Man City won the title in the last minutes of the last game and only won the title by goal difference. Had that not occurred they would have ended up 2nd. This year they also ended up 2nd yet the quality of their play has greatly diminished. I know this is hypothetical, but the subtle difference is required to highlight how the quality of the play does matter.

I think that had we had the same players at Spurs as last year and played the same kind of football, I believe we would have scored more points and be higher in the league than we are. I also think that this would be true, whether AVB managed that squad or Harry had stayed on for another year.

Oh and I would rather we had 11 brilliant players that were exciting to watch, played attractive football and finished 5th than to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th playing rubbish football. I just prefer Spurs to play that way and finishing 2nd is still first loser in my book, you have won nothing so the sacrifice would be worth it for me. I would however, be okay if we played crap but won the title, that would be okay, but only for 1 season!

Most Spurs fans want to win trophies and finish in a high position. I will forgo brilliance for trophies and position.

As for having the same players; that is an assumption you can't back up or prove. For all we know if we had those players we might have finished a lot lower.

[Glenn R]

Oh and I would rather we had 11 brilliant players that were exciting to watch, played attractive football and finished 5th than to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th playing rubbish football. I just prefer Spurs to play that way and finishing 2nd is still first loser in my book, you have won nothing so the sacrifice would be worth it for me. I would however, be okay if we played crap but won the title, that would be okay, but only for 1 season! 

That is an incredible statement to make  If we had 11 brilliant players, it is unlikely that we would play badly enough to end up 8th or 9th and if we did, every Spurs supporter would be up in arms at the money wasted on them and the manager not doing enough to motivate the players.  Playing great football is one thing, being hammered whilst doing it is pointless. ie: We lost 3- 0 today, but the lads played well???

No club can perform at their best every week as we are all aware and that applies to us. Just ask your wives! 

You can have "11 brilliant players," but not working together. You can also have 11 poorer players working together and do very well. Remember; football is a team effort. Not an individual sport.

[spursjoolz]

Voice. I said "it would be unlikely". As an ex-coach, I am well aware of team work, but I would disagree (It is highly unlikely) that "11 poor players" even working as a team would do better than "11 brilliant ones", not working as team. 

As we all know, it just takes 1 or 2 players to change a game.