So why a new stadium ?

[baldbloke]

I know I have gone about this before, however I believe there is now living evidence that I am right. If you are one of the many people waiting for a season ticket I can half understand why you want this new super stadium (although you are still looking 5 years down the line at best). If  you are one of those many people that love the bragging rights that are " I have a bigger one than you" well even then I can understand why you would want this bigger stadium. Other than those two reasons I think anyone that wants to either move or expand is crazy.

Our neighbors up the road built a 60,000 stadium and haven't won a sausage since. They still have a massive dept and can't afford either bigger wages or better players than us. Our present board want a larger ground because it will in turn increase the profile of the club and of course give them a healthy return on their investment. There is NO evidence anywhere in the world that building a larger stadium will give a club success. All the clubs with massive stadiums have become successful first and then built or expanded their stadium later. Man City are obviously an exception for reasons I won't bother with, and their stadium isn't that big anyway.

Regardless of design I am 100% positive we will lose the atmosphere we have at WHL if we move or expand, and this is our 12th player. To achieve this the club would have to move every singing supporter to approximately the same place they sit now in the new stadium. At present Spurs struggle to get tickets out to fans on time, do you really think they are capable of carrying out such an exercise.

At the end of the day I realise the opposition to my argument will far out way my opinion, but just think about it, because there are about 60,000 fans up the road that would probably agree with me. 

Don't just say no to Stratford, say no to the NPD

[writeontheedge]

There's lots of arguments for an against but expansion is a good idea for the long term revenue of the club.


All my Ars*nal fan mates say that their stadium is paid off and that Arsene has had £70 the last few seasons to spend but chooses not to.  So Aresenal aren't apparently in any serious debt they are just being greedy behind the scenes it seems to get bigger bonuses.


We should expand though for player purchase, reputation and to allow more fans to see the matches.

[baldbloke]

There's lots of arguments for an against but expansion is a good idea for the long term revenue of the club.


All my Ars*nal fan mates say that their stadium is paid off and that Arsene has had £70 the last few seasons to spend but chooses not to.  So Aresenal aren't apparently in any serious debt they are just being greedy behind the scenes it seems to get bigger bonuses.


We should expand though for player purchase, reputation and to allow more fans to see the matches.

There won't be any more money for player purchase or wages because we have to pay for the stadium. Who gives a toss about reputation, or in other words " we have a bigger one than you". With regards to your comments about more fans wanting to see games, I would like to make the following points. The next two home Europa cup games are the ideal opportunities for so called supporters to go to he Lane, and at a cheap price as well. The reality is that there will be at least 10,000 empty seats. The fans you refer to want to go on line a week before a game and buy four seats together against Man Utd for no more than £20 each. For the vast amount of games at the Lane it really isn't that hard to get a ticket. I could of got several tickets for the Man City, Liverpool and Everton games up to a few days before the games.

Like I said, the only reason for a new ground is to make the directors even richer than they are.

[dimexi]

So are you saying that if we had a new stadium, we wouldn't fill it for most of the premiership, cup and European games? Only reaching capacity for the top sides?

[ugs]

To compete on a higher level you need to pay higher wages, higher wages come from bigger gate receipts etc etc etc very simple and you will shoot me down but if you want to attract better players you need cash on a regular basis.
 
It is time that we expand our stadium somehow, I would much prefer the NPD to go ahead because it is not for the next 5 or 10 years but for the next 50 to 100 years and generations to come. It's a very short sighted view in my opinion to say the board are just doing it for money or to boast I believe they have the future of the club in their thoughts and although it may cause us some short term financial pain in the long run it will place the club in a stronger and more prominent position.
 
Just because the Arse down the road have made some dubious decisions, mainly due to the arrogance and short sightedness of their manager it dosen't mean we will do the same !!!
 
Ok Baldbloke shoot me down call me a fool.... I don't care I think your views are short sighted, blinkered and mis guided at best
 
 

[baldbloke]

So are you saying that if we had a new stadium, we wouldn't fill it for most of the premiership, cup and European games? Only reaching capacity for the top sides?

Without question we would fill it for a handful of games, and even then it would depend on when Sky made us play the games. Games against teams like Wigan and Blackburn would leave waves of empty seats unless the prices were reduced so low it wouldn't justify the re-build anyway. Europa cup games, League cup games and FA cup games played on a Sunday would leave the ground half empty. Many Spurs supporters believe we have a far bigger ACTIVE support than we really do. To  be fair Ars*nal have a far bigger fan base than us and even they are struggling to sell tickets.

[taimedowne]

We are not building the new ground to compete in The Europa League to be fair. We have ambition and that is to be encouraged. Although without investment in the playing side as well the whole plan is doomed. However with a shiny new stadium and a competitive team who knows how far we can go. We are not just building the new ground for todays generation of Spurs fans but for future generations as well. With a successful side the core support will grow and in 15 years time 60,000 seats may seem to few who can tell.

[Spurs218]

We are not building the new ground to compete in The Europa League to be fair. We have ambition and that is to be encouraged. Although without investment in the playing side as well the whole plan is doomed. However with a shiny new stadium and a competitive team who knows how far we can go. We are not just building the new ground for todays generation of Spurs fans but for future generations as well. With a successful side the core support will grow and in 15 years time 60,000 seats may seem to few who can tell.

Good post.

[baldbloke]

We are not building the new ground to compete in The Europa League to be fair. We have ambition and that is to be encouraged. Although without investment in the playing side as well the whole plan is doomed. However with a shiny new stadium and a competitive team who knows how far we can go. We are not just building the new ground for todays generation of Spurs fans but for future generations as well. With a successful side the core support will grow and in 15 years time 60,000 seats may seem to few who can tell.

Your obviously not a business man. To invest an absolute fortune in the hope we become very successful is madness. As I have stated in previous posts, ALL clubs with massive stadiums have been have achieved success on the pitch first, Spurs plan to do it in reverse.  There are only two ways to be successful in the prem. You either need a billionaire like Citeh (which would be really horrible) or an amazing strategy like Ardenal once had. If anyone really thinks we will be more successful if we have a bigger ground, I would suggest you think again !!

[taimedowne]

If you read my post again you will see I said that the new ground can only go hand in hand with a successful team. You only have to look at Southampton and Coventry to see that anything else is suicidal. The problem is how do you gauge success, are we succsessful now ? If so we should build the Stadium right now. Or do we have to wait till we win the Champions League, which might be a long wait. I dont think it matters when we build really. It's going to take at least 2 years to build the ground and a successful side today can be propping up the league tomorrow. Whenever we do it it will be a gamble. But I think for the long term future of the club it's one that needs to be taken.

[baldbloke]

Being successful I agree is a gray area. If you look at Ars*nal as an example their success was measured by 3 league titles, two of which were doubles in a period of ten years (please correct me if I am wrong). We have won the league cup twice, not quite the same thing, is it ?

Our risk is far higher than theirs ever was. I see this as an enormous risk to the club, but not the board will have moved on long after we ever get in financial trouble. From a footballing point of view rather than a financial one, there will no money left for new players and a stadium with little to no atmosphere.

My question is whether you would rather be an Ars*nal supporter at the moment with a 60,000 stadium or a Spurs supporter with a 36,000 ?

[taimedowne]

Well I'd rather be a Spurs supporter if we played on Hackney Marshes to answer that question.          The problem as I see it is if we stay still we will actually go backwards. I think that the Stadium development and the finance for the team must be kept separate we cannot allow the quality of players we buy to drop. I do feel the board must realise this though, there would be little point in building a 60,000 seat ground for a team that nobody wants to watch. To be honest we could argue about this all night and not get anywhere there are good reasons to build and equally good reasons not to. I think the recent riots have played right into Levy's hands though as the Council and the Mayor  seem to be falling over themselves to invigorate the area and our plan is just the sort of development they are looking for. Levy will be looking to see how much financial assistance he can screw out of them before he commits to anything at all. It should make for fascinating viewing. 

[baldbloke]

Well I'd rather be a Spurs supporter if we played on Hackney Marshes to answer that question.          The problem as I see it is if we stay still we will actually go backwards. I think that the Stadium development and the finance for the team must be kept separate we cannot allow the quality of players we buy to drop. I do feel the board must realise this though, there would be little point in building a 60,000 seat ground for a team that nobody wants to watch. To be honest we could argue about this all night and not get anywhere there are good reasons to build and equally good reasons not to. I think the recent riots have played right into Levy's hands though as the Council and the Mayor  seem to be falling over themselves to invigorate the area and our plan is just the sort of development they are looking for. Levy will be looking to see how much financial assistance he can screw out of them before he commits to anything at all. It should make for fascinating viewing.

The only thing we can all be assured of is that if anything happens it will be years away. If I had to guess I would say the NPD will go ahead and be completed for the 2015/2016 season at the soonest.

[dimexi]

Ok Baldie I have decided to return to your original post because I believe it is here that you have most clearly put the reasons why you are against. I will take each point one at a time.

Our neighbors up the road built a 60,000 stadium and haven't won a sausage since. They still have a massive dept and can't afford either bigger wages or better players than us.

I do not believe this is true. First we should not base any of our decision based on what other teams do. I realise that we all like to lay in to them on the other side, but they have built a very impressive stadium, it is always full and is better than Highbury. Secondly, yes they have massive debt, but they are managing their debt. They are paying it off, and are still able to buy players and offer new contracts. (They may not choose to offer huge contracts and do not go out and spend a fortune, but that is not because they can’t, but because they do not want to)

Our present board want a larger ground because it will in turn increase the profile of the club and of course give them a healthy return on their investment.

This is only your opinion; there is no evidence that this was their intention. You can of course believe what you will, but cannot state this as fact.

There is NO evidence anywhere in the world that building a larger stadium will give a club success.

No, true there is not, but there is no evidence that it guarantees failure either!

All the clubs with massive stadiums have become successful first and then built or expanded their stadium later. Man City are obviously an exception for reasons I won't bother with, and their stadium isn't that big anyway.
 

So there are exceptions to the rule and if we expanded in the right way, there is no reason why we cannot also fit this criteria. Furthermore, I agree with taimedowne

We are not building the new ground to compete in The Europa League to be fair. We have ambition and that is to be encouraged. Although without investment in the playing side as well the whole plan is doomed.

In support of this I would claim that we are a very successful team. In that we remain a reliable premiership side that regularly challenges for Europe and the odd cup run. We do have a large fan base and there would be the demand for season tickets and match day tickets for the occasional supporter. Besides if we take the average price for a ticket was £35.00 36000 x £35 = £1,260,000.

Therefore, if on average we only filled the stadium to 90% (54000) and we kept the average price to £35.   54000 x £35 = £1,890,000. This is an increase in revenue of nearly £700,000 per match x 25 home games including cup games = £17,500,000 per season.

Now |I know my numbers are crude and not 100% accurate but you get the idea. The increase in revenue, if reinvested into the side as well as servicing the debt is to the benefit of Spurs.

Regardless of design I am 100% positive we will lose the atmosphere we have at WHL if we move or expand, and this is our 12th player.

So are you saying you are only prepared to lose the atmosphere if we win the league? I am afraid that football has moved on. We may not like the fact that we no longer have a terrace atmosphere but society has changed. It is not an option to fear change and hold on to the past, without looking clearly at the future. The atmosphere is not lost solely on the design of a stadium, but more so because of the individuals that make up the crowd. Football is now more inclusive, and invites a wider range of audience than the raging passionate, male testosterone induced members that created the atmosphere you so desire.

I welcome the NPD development and I think we should all back this project. Yes it may be 5 years down the line, but this also means that we can continue to build on our recent success. We are in the strongest position we have been in for years. I do agree that we must also invest and develop the side alongside these other projects and if this happens then we can look forward to a much brighter future than that of many years in the past. It has been too long a time since we had real success and if this crucial part of the puzzle is fulfilled along with the playing side, then let’s go for it.

COYS

[baldbloke]

I disagree with almost everything you have said. Regretfully you appear to be like most people on here and just want the bragging rights. To have a corporate filled stadium with no atmosphere (like the emirates) is a horrible thought. I'm glad you agree that there is no precedent behind building a large stadium prior to success, however to be the first to try it out is financial suicide.

Mark my words, if this goes ahead we won't have enough money to buy a bag of chips, let alone top quality players. In fact you are very conservative in your calculations. The additional revenue is meant to be about £40m p.a. I believe this is a bit ambitious, but even it is right £40m in prem football terms is peanuts.

Spurs fans need to wake up and smell the coffee. This entire project is about making money for the few, and has NOTHING to do with future success. If it had, then perhaps Joe Lewis would have taken the loose change out of his back pocket years ago and bought the NPD cash.

Have you noticed that the club is giving away hundreds of tickets for Thursday night because they can't shift them. Yes we do have a large fan base, unfortunately not enough of them are active, and our board haven't the common sense to charge the right amount for games such as these to help them be active. £25/£30 respectively, when the cost should have been no more than £10.